Dave Oney was born mid last century in Middlebury, Vermont. He received his BS in Chemistry and worked as a polymer chemist in Massachusetts and New Jersey. He became a microscopist (someone who studies little bitty things using a microscope) and photomicrographer (someone who photographs little bitty things) before settling into a 35-year career in technical sales of scientific imaging equipment (the science of digitally recording itty bitty things, sending the image to a computer for analysis.) He designed and created a number of products contributing to this field. He is (was) proficient in several computer languages and is currently working on mastering English.
After making a few more paradigm shift career changes Dave and his wife, Fran, retired and moved closer to their children and granddaughters and now live in the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas.
As we hunker down at home I realize I have to stop reading new recipes! Despite exercising nearly as much as pre-Covid19 my baking is up around 400%. While all this baking is increasing my skills, it is also increasing my belt size. Luckily, as we are sheltering-in-place stretch waist warmup pants are all the rage.
I saw this recipe from PopSugar online and as I had lemons and raspberries all I needed was the plain Greek yogurt, which was procured during our sanctioned grocery shopping yesterday. Speaking of grocery shopping, we find it difficult to buy a weeks, much less two weeks worth of groceries in one trip. Any suggestions?
The only change I made to the recipe was to substitute equal quantities of olive for canola oil. The intense flavor of the fresh raspberries complemented, but didn’t overpower the lemon. It may be fun to remake these muffins using AP flour rather than whole wheat. I’m thinking it may make a lighter muffin. We have weeks more hunkering down here. Who knows? Obviously, only the Shadow knows.
I also baked these using Convection, which dropped the temperature from 400 deg to 375. I set the timer for the lower range (18 min) and took the muffins out at 20 min.
The batter is very thick so folding in the berries without mashing them is difficult. Be gentle. Be patient.
Lemon Raspberry Muffins
INGREDIENTS • 1 lemon • ½ cup sugar • 1 cup plain nonfat Greek yogurt • 1/3 cup canola oil • 1 large egg • 1 teaspoon vanilla extract • 2 cups white whole-wheat flour • 1 ½ teaspoons baking powder • 1 teaspoon baking soda • ¼ teaspoon salt • 1 ½ cups fresh raspberries
Preheat oven to 400°F. Coat 12 large (½ -cup) muffin cups with cooking spray, or line with paper liners.
Use a vegetable peeler to remove the zest from the lemon in long strips. Combine the zest and sugar in a food processor; pulse until the zest is very finely chopped into the sugar.
Add yogurt, oil, egg, and vanilla. Pulse until blended.
Combine whole-wheat flour, baking powder, baking soda, and salt in a large bowl. Add the yogurt mixture, and fold until almost blended. Gently fold in raspberries. Divide the batter (it will be thick) among the muffin cups.
Bake the muffins until the edges and tops are golden, 18 to 25 minutes. Let cool in the pan for five minutes before turning out onto a wire rack. Serve warm.
While the dark rye I made last week was excellent, I really wanted a lighter rye. I have never had a lot of success with light rye but found a KAF recipe and gave it a go.
I followed the directions as written with just a couple of minor changes. I like to let the proofed dough rest as the oven preheats. I removed it from the proofing bowl, put on a lightly floured piece of parchment paper, form it into a ball and cover to rest. This lets me pick up the dough from the corners of the parchment paper and place into the Dutch Oven. The method below is as KAF published it.
After the recommended baking time the bread was only 145 deg in the center. It required almost 20 more minutes for the temp to be 195. This caused both the top and bottom to brown too much, and the center was barely cooked. Next time I’ll reduce the temperature to 400 and bake for 45 min, checking the internal temp at 30 minutes. Still, good flavor, even if it was a bit of a close texture.
Light Rye Bread – KAF
INGREDIENTS • 1 ½ cups (340g) lukewarm water • 2 1/3 cups (280g) Bread Flour • 1 ½ cups (163g) light rye flour • 1/4 cup (28g) nonfat dry milk • 1 ½ teaspoons table salt • 1 ½ teaspoons instant yeast • 1 ½ teaspoons Deli Rye Flavor, optional • 2 tablespoons (25g) vegetable oil METHOD
Place the water in a large mixing bowl.
Combine the flours with the remaining ingredients in a large mixing bowl, or the bowl of your stand mixer. Mix until there are no dry spots. Using a stand mixer, mix at low speed until all of the flour is moistened. The texture of the dough will be soft and sticky due to the pumpernickel flour.
Cover the bowl and let the dough rise at room temperature for 2 hours. Then refrigerate overnight, or for up to 48 hours.
To bake bread: Grease your hands, and scoop the dough out onto a lightly greased or floured work surface. Shape it into a ball and place it, smooth side down, in a floured brotform; or in a bowl lined with a floured smooth cotton dish towel. Let the dough rise, covered, for 2 to 3 hours.
About 45 minutes before the end of the rising time, start preheating the oven to 450°F with a 4- to 4 ½ -quart baking pot or casserole with a lid inside.
When the loaf is fully risen, remove the hot casserole from the oven, carefully grease it, and tip the risen ball of dough into it. Make several slashes in the dough. Cover the pot with the lid, and place it on a middle rack in the oven.
Bake the bread for 25 minutes. Remove the lid and bake for an additional 5 to 10 minutes; the loaf should be lightly browned, and the interior should register at least 195°F on a digital thermometer.
Remove the bread from the oven and turn it out of the crock onto a rack. Cool for several hours before slicing.
We only had Ritz and Saltines in the cupboard, then I saw these crackers online. I have both Brie and aged cheddar cheeses in the fridge and while the cheddar is fine on Ritz the Brie just doesn’t work for me on either cracker. However, lightly salted soda crackers, topped with a little homemade fig jam and Brie is, as Mary Berry would say, is “scrummy”.
The hardest part of making these crackers is the rollin’, rollin’ rollin’. Luckily, the dough, once rolled out slightly becomes very supple and elastic and didn’t tear. Rolling out to the ultimate 11”x15” sheet seemed to take forever. Luckily, preheating the oven to 425 deg likewise takes a long time. (I used convection which dropped the temp to 400 deg.) Too bad there isn’t a way to photograph the crisp snap. The crackers are great!
Gourmet Soda Crackers
• 1 1/2 cups (163g) Italian-Style Flour (40g cake flour, 123g AP flour) • 2 teaspoons instant yeast • 1/4 teaspoon salt • 1/4 teaspoon baking soda • 1/4 teaspoon cream of tartar • 1 tablespoon King Arthur Easy-Roll Dough Improver, optional but helpful • 1 teaspoon sugar • 6 tablespoons (85g) water • 2 tablespoons (28g) butter • 2 tablespoons (25g) vegetable oil
Whisk together the flour, yeast, salt, baking soda, cream of tartar, dough improver, and sugar. Set it aside.
Put the water, butter, and oil in a microwave-safe cup, or in a saucepan. Heat gently just to melt the butter. Remove from the heat, and cool to 120°F-130°F. If you don’t have a thermometer, this will feel hotter than lukewarm, but not at all uncomfortably hot; it’ll be cooler than your hottest tap water.
Add the liquid ingredients to the dry ingredients. Beat at medium, then high speed for a total of about 90 seconds, to make a soft dough.
Place the dough in a lightly greased bowl, cover it, and refrigerate overnight, or for up to 18 hours. It won’t rise much; the bowl can be small.
Remove the dough from the refrigerator, and allow it to rest for about 15 minutes. Preheat the oven to 425°F.
Lightly flour a work surface (a silicone rolling mat works well here), and remove the dough from its rising bowl. It won’t feel like normal yeast dough; it’ll be more clay-like. Shape the dough into a 3″ x 5″ rectangular block; pre-shaping it like this will help you roll it out evenly. Roll it into a rough 13″ x 15″ rectangle; it’ll be quite thin. Be sure to keep the rolling surface well-floured, to avoid sticking.
Starting with a shorter side, fold the dough in three like a business letter.
Roll it out again, this time to an 11″ x 19″ rectangle, or thereabouts. The dough will shrink when you stop rolling it; your goal is to end up with a rectangle that’s about 10″ x 18″.
Sprinkle the dough with your choice of salt — we like an herbed or smoked salt — and gently press it in with the rolling pin.
Using a rolling pizza wheel (easiest) or a baker’s bench knife, cut the dough into 2″ squares. Note: If you’re using a silicone mat, cut very carefully – you don’t want to damage the mat. We like to use an acrylic-blade pizza wheel.
Transfer the crackers to two lightly greased or parchment-lined baking sheets; you can put them fairly close together, as they’ll shrink as they bake, rather than spread. Prick each cracker once or twice with the tines of a fork.
Bake the crackers for about 10 minutes, till they’re a very light golden brown. Watch them carefully towards the end of the baking time; they can darken very quickly.
Turn off the oven, and open the door completely. Leave the crackers on the oven rack; they’re going to cool down right in the cooling oven, in order to preserve their crispness. Keep your eye on them for the first couple of minutes; if for some reason your oven isn’t cooling off quickly, and the crackers are continuing to brown, pull the rack out partway.
When the crackers are completely cool, remove them from the oven, and wrap airtight, to preserve their crispness.
While I was out taking a 3.41818 mile, or 6016 yard hike today Fran found my Mom’s handwritten recipe for chocolate cookies. She thought I might like to try my hand at them. (The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, does it?) Of course, they won’t be the same as Mom’s, but as I am much older than the last time I had hers, I probably won’t be able to remember anyway.
I used silicone baking sheets instead of greased cookie sheets. Also, the cookies are thinner than she probably made, which is weird because she was, without a doubt, thinner than I am now. I believe I know why the cookies are so thin. After I finished I deciphered the word “spoons” as the method to beat in the eggs and melted chocolate. I used the stand mixer and probably over-beat them.
In the end, the cookies were chocolatey, chewy and delicious. I think Mom would approve, but thinking back on it, Mom approved, or at least praised and encouraged us, no matter what we did, (provided it didn’t involve vehicles with sirens and lights, including ambulances or the police, high school principals or the college Dean of Men.)
Standing in front of our open refrigerator door I noticed a partial tub of cream cheese we bought it for the granddaughters’ snack visit prior to the shelter-in-place order. As I stood there listening to the melodious door alarm-chime wondering what to do with it, I had an epiphany… bagels!! I haven’t made bagels in a couple of years and I was ready to try again. My first batch were ok, but not as good as what you can buy at a good bagel shop. Well, as time marches on my baking skills improve.
Bagels aren’t the easiest bread to make. It takes several proofs, rests and shaping over two days. Luckily, much of the time is consumed by proofing and resting the dough and not hands on activity. I now have some ET bagel topping so I made my favorite bagels as an extra treat.
The recipe I used last time, from ChefSteps, was good, but the resulting bagels were too small. This time I doubled the amount of dough in each bagel (from 65 g each to 130g.) This produced 8 larger bagels instead of 16 small ones.
The bagels are shaped by pressing a forefinger on one side of a dough ball and a thumb on the opposite then pushing straight through forming a hole. Next, insert two forefingers inside the hole and spin around gradually separating the fingers and enlarging the hole to 3 or 4 times the original. The resulting dough rings were about 4” diameter with a 2” hole. After the dough relaxes in the fridge the bagels were about 3 – 3.5” diameter with a 1” hole. NOTE: They will rise in the refrigerator overnight.
It turned out the hole wasn’t quite big enough and the center closed up on most of the bagels. For the next batch I will stretch the dough to a 5” diameter and 2.5” hole. I would like the final hole, after proofing to be 1.5”. NOTE: The bagels do a final rise in the oven and the hole closes in even more.
Bagels from ChefSteps
INGREDIENTS • 350 g Water, plus more for boiling • 650 g Bread flour, divided • 3 g Active dry yeast • 25 g Sugar, granulated, optional • 25 g Diastatic malt powder • 10 g Salt • 25 g Molasses • 10 g Baked baking soda
OPTIONAL • 10 g ET bagel topping • 10 g Black sesame seed • 10 g Dried onion flakes • 10 g Salt, Maldon flake • 7 g Poppy seed • 5 g Sesame seed • 5 g Dried garlic flakes
In a stand mixer bowl, combine 350 g room temperature water, 250 g of the flour, and the active dry yeast. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap or a damp cloth and let the mixture proof at room temperature until it doubles in size and makes frothy bubbles that collapse when you tap the bowl on the countertop. This takes about two to three hours. (Look for a foam that resembles the one on a root beer float. If you don’t see this yet, just give the yeast a bit more time to work its magic.)
In a bowl, combine the remaining 400 g of bread flour with 25 g sugar, 25 g diastatic malt powder, and 10 g salt.
Use the stand mixer and the dough hook, set the mixer to lowest speed. Gradually spoon in the dry ingredients and let the dough mix until it becomes stretchy and smooth and pulls away from the sides of the bowl, about 15 to 20 minutes.
Cover the bowl with a damp cloth and let the dough cool in the fridge for 20 minutes.
Working quickly to keep the dough cool, divide it into 130 g portions and set them on a parchment paper lined pan. Keep the entire sheet covered with plastic wrap as you work, tucking each new portion underneath the plastic wrap to keep any crust from forming.
First, form a dome. Make a circle with one hand, place a piece of portioned dough halfway inside it, and use one finger of your other hand to turn the dough while gradually pushing it through the circle tightening the dough as you work around the outside. You want to end up with a nice, taut dome.
Next, turn that dome into a ball. Hold the dome with the concave underside facing up. Pinch the dough closed across the “bowl,” then roll the seam on the work surface until smooth. When you finish each piece, return it to its spot under the plastic wrap on the sheet pan.
Cool the dough balls in the refrigerator for 20 minutes.
Working with one ball at a time, use two fingers to pinch a hole through the center of the dough, turning it while you work. Once you break through the dough, turn it on its side (like a spinning wheel). Stick both of your index fingers through the hole from opposite directions, and spin them around each other, slowly stretching out the hole until you can fit three fingers through it. Return the shaped dough to its covered spot on the tray. (You might need a second tray.)
Allow to proof at room temperature until a dough ring floats when set in a bowl of water. This will take about 20–40 minutes. (If the test ring sinks, proof a bit longer. The bagel I used for this test stuck to the parchment paper in the refrigerator overnight. Be careful.)
Make sure the tray(s) are wrapped tightly with plastic wrap, and let them cool in the refrigerator overnight to allow flavors to develop.
In a large pot over high heat, bring 5 L water, 25 g molasses, and 10 g baking soda to a roiling boil.
Preheat the oven to 425 °F / 218 °C (Use convection if available)
Working in batches, drop the bagels into the water and boil for 60 seconds, then flip them with a spider strainer or fork and boil for another 60 seconds. Transfer them with their smooth, rounded sides up, to a wire rack on a half-sheet pan.
If you’re adding the seasoning mix—or your own choice of toppings—now’s the time to sprinkle it over the tops of the bagels.
Transfer the bagels to a parchment paper–lined half-sheet pan and move it to the center rack of the preheated oven.
Bake for seven minutes, spin the tray around to ensure even cooking, and continue baking until bagels have a nice, brown color—about seven more minutes.. To be sure they are done check the internal temperature is over 190 deg.
You may have noticed that I’ve been on a no-knead bread kick lately. Kneading dough isn’t a problem. My Kitchen-aide stand mixer and dough hook are very happy to knead the dough for me. What’s nice about this bread, aside from flavor, crumb, crust and appearance, is that it takes less that 10 minutes to mix the dough in the evening. It then ferments overnight, building all that great texture-generating gluten. In the morning simply form the dough into a ball and let it rest for an hour as the oven and Dutch Oven are heating, then bake for 30-45 minutes.
I found this recipe for a whole wheat no-knead bread a week ago and have made several loaves, giving most to friends, neighbors and family. I made two loaves today, one without seeds for my granddaughters, and one with for Fran and me. I use King Arthur’s Artisan Bread Topping which is a mixture of many seed varieties.
Made in a Dutch Oven, this bread has a great crust and excellent crumb and flavor. I find comments from each loaf, delivered while still warm, typically are, “You really outdid yourself with this loaf. It’s the best ever!” There is a feeling of satisfaction when, in these times, you are able to provide a simple, sensory respite for someone.
No-Knead Whole Wheat Bread
• 300 grams (2 1/4 cups) bread flour, plus more for the work surface • 100 grams (3/4 cup) whole-wheat flour • 1 1/4 teaspoons salt (table) • 1/2 teaspoon dried instant yeast • 300 grams (1 1/3 cups) cool water (55 to 65 degrees) • Wheat bran or cornmeal, for dusting (may use additional flour)
Stir together the flours, salt and yeast in a medium bowl. Add the water; use a wooden spoon or your hands to mix until you have a wet, sticky dough, about 30 seconds. Cover the bowl and let the mixture sit at room temperature until its surface is dotted with bubbles and the dough has more than doubled in size, 12 to 18 hours.
Generously dust a sheet of parchment paper with flour. Use a rubber spatula or lightly floured hands to scrape the dough onto the parchment paper in one piece. Use your lightly floured hands to lift the edges of the dough up and in toward the center. Gently pinch the pulled-up dough together, cupping the edges in your hands as needed to nudge it into a round (don’t worry about making it a perfect circle.)
If the dough feels sticky, dust the top lightly with more wheat bran, cornmeal or flour. Place the plastic wrap used to cover the bowl of dough loosely over the dough. Place the dough in a warm, draft-free spot to rise for 1 to 2 hours. The dough is ready when it has almost doubled in size. When you gently poke the dough with your finger, it should hold the impression. If it springs back, let it rise for an additional 15 minutes.
About half an hour before you think the second rise is complete, position a rack in the lower third of the oven and place a 4 1/2- to 5 1/2-quart heavy Dutch oven or pot with a lid in the center of the rack. Preheat to 475 degrees.
Use pot holders to carefully remove the preheated pot from the oven, then lift off the lid.
Uncover the dough. Quickly, but gently slit the top with a lame or sharp knife. If you are going to add seeds, spray the loaf with a light coating of water and sprinkle the seeds over the top. Pick up the four corners of the parchment paper and place into the pot. (Use caution — the pot and lid will be very hot.) Cover with the lid; bake (lower rack) for 30 minutes.
Remove the lid; continue baking until the loaf is a deep chestnut color but not burned, 15 to 30 minutes more. (If you are like me and want a more precise measure, the bread is done when an instant-read thermometer inserted into the center of the bread registers 200 to 210 degrees. I use the thermometer on every loaf.) Use the parchment paper to carefully lift the bread out of the pot and place it on a rack to cool thoroughly before serving or storing. Note: The oven temp is 475 degrees and if you remember Ray Bradbury’s book, you will never forget paper burns at Fahrenheit 451. It will be brown, black and crispy. Be gentle.
No, I’m not in Oklahoma, I am still sheltering-in-place in California. In the Galaxy on Orion’s Belt post I mentioned I was going to remake the mousse desserts using Agar Agar rather than gelatin. Agar is a plant based thickener while gelatin is animal based. Well, the agar was delivered this week and as I and still sheltering-in-place, I am still baking, so here we go.
Last week Fran asked for some shortbread cookies so I made a batch this morning. I cut them into rounds, just smaller than the large end of my silicon hemisphere molds. The plan is to fill the mold about 2/3rds of the way with mousse, push a frozen vanilla cream into it and seal the bottom with the cookie. As I planned to coat one end of the shortbread cookies with chocolate, and will have some left over, I will coat the bottom of some of the hemisphere desserts with some, then mirror glaze them.
So the plan was good, but the execution was lacking. The cookies were too big so I cut them down, but they were also too thick. I couldn’t properly fill the mold with vanilla cream and cookie and still have 1/8” space for the chocolate. The new plan is to dip the bottom of the bombe in chocolate, re-freeze and then coat with the agar mirror glaze.
The agar mirror glaze was easy to make, but cooled too quickly and coated the bombes with a thick glaze. Luckily, this glaze, while sticky, was much better than the gelatin version. Portions of the glaze were placed in small bowls and dyed. When ready to coat the mousse bombes some of the colored glaze was poured on a larger aliquot of yellow glaze and poured over the bombe.
The good news is, Quality Assurance certified the mousse as exceptionally light and creamy. The cookies were a bit thick so it was suggested a pan of brownies would be a better base. The chocolate bottom was a nice addition and should be continued.
The directions for the agar agar said you should cool the glaze to 80 – 90 degrees. I found this temperature too low resulting in a thick glaze. I also need to find a better way to mix the various colors with the base color while maintaining the temperature of the dyed glaze at 90-100 deg, maybe place them in a warm water bath until ready to use.
Anyway, they are delicious and worth making!!
INGREDIENTS • 3/4 pound unsalted butter, at room temperature • 1 cup sugar, plus extra for sprinkling • 1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract • 3 ½ cups all-purpose flour • ¼ teaspoon salt
Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F.
In the bowl of an electric mixer fitted with a paddle attachment, mix together the butter and 1 cup of sugar until they are just combined. Add the vanilla.
In a medium bowl, sift together the flour and salt, then add them to the butter-and-sugar mixture. Mix on low speed until the dough starts to come together. Dump onto a surface dusted with flour and shape into a flat disk. Wrap in plastic and chill for 30 minutes.
Roll the dough 1/4-inch thick and cut with a round cutter just smaller than the opening of the mold. Place the cookies on an ungreased baking sheet and bake for 20 to 25 minutes, until the edges begin to brown. Allow to cool to room temperature.
Vanilla Cream Filling
INGREDIENTS • 3 tbsp all purpose flour • 1/2 cup milk (low fat is fine) • 1/2 cup butter (or Trans fat-free shortening) • 1/2 cup granulated sugar • 1/2 scraped vanilla bean or 1 tsp vanilla extract
Whisk together the flour and milk and cook in a small saucepan over medium heat until thick. This will only take a few minutes. Stir continuously to prevent the mixture from clumping and do not bring all the way to a boil. When thickened (consistency will be that of a thin pudding or custard), strain with a mesh strainer into a small bowl, cover with plastic wrap and let cool completely to room temperature.
When the milk mixture is cool, cream the butter (or shortening) and sugar together in a medium bowl until light.
Add in the milk/flour mixture and the scraped vanilla bean seeds (or vanilla extract) and beat at high speed with an electric mixer for 7 minutes, until light and fluffy.
Scrape into a pastry bag fitted with a plain tip, or a large ziplock bag with the corner cut off, and set aside until ready to fill your cupcakes.
Dark Chocolate Mousse
• 5 1/4 ounces 148 g bittersweet chocolate, coarsely chopped • 14 ounces 396 g cold heavy cream • 3 large egg whites • 1-ounce 29 g sugar • Sweetened whipped cream, for garnish, optional • Shaved bittersweet chocolate, for garnish, optional • 6 ounces 170 g semi-sweet chocolate, finely chopped • 1-ounce sugar 6 ounces semi sweet chocolate, finely chopped
Place chocolate in a large bowl set over a bain marie or in a double boiler at a low simmer. Stir chocolate until melted. Turn off the heat and let stand.
Beat the cream over ice until it forms soft peaks. Set aside and hold at room temperature.
With a mixer, whip egg to soft peaks. Gradually add the sugar and continue whipping until firm.
Remove the chocolate from the bain marie and using a whisk, fold in the egg whites all at once.
When the whites are almost completely incorporated, fold in the whipped cream.
Fill each well of the hemispherical mold about halfway. Push a frozen vanilla cream drop in each well and top with a shortbread cookie. Make sure the cookie is below the top of the well.
Place the mold in the freezer until solid.
When frozen solid remove the mousse from the mold .
Put 3 ounces of the chocolate in a glass bowl and microwave on high power for 30 seconds. (Don’t trust your microwave timer; time it with your watch.) Stir with a wooden spoon. Continue to heat and stir in 30-second increments until the chocolate is just melted. Add the remaining chocolate and allow it to sit at room temperature, stirring often, until it’s completely smooth. Stir vigorously until the chocolate is smooth and slightly cooled; stirring makes it glossier.
Coat the top of each cell with a thin coat (1/8”) with melted chocolate and return to the freezer to set.
Agar Mirror Glaze Recipe
• White Chocolate 8 ounces (220g) • Sweetened Condensed Milk ½ cup (140g) • Granulated Sugar 1 cup (200g) • Corn Syrup ¾ cup (245g) • Cold Water 7 tablespoons (100ml) • HOT Water ½ cup (120ml) • Powdered Agar 4 teaspoons (16g)
Bloom agar in the HOT water (120ml), let stand 5 minutes
Combine the corn syrup, the other measure of COLD water (100ml) and the sugar in a heavy bottom sauce pot and get it warmed to at least 150°F add the bloomed agar and bring to a boil.
Allow it to boil rapidly for 1 minute, then remove from the heat and add the condensed milk and whisk smooth
Pour the entire hot mixture over the chocolate and whisk smooth
Pour through a strainer into a clean container and color as you like.
Pour over cakes & pastries once it has cooled to 80 or 90°F